River of Division and Integration – Reflection on Participation in the GASi Symposium in Belgrade in August 2023

Simona, Mojca and me – Igor, three psychodynamic organisational consultants from Slovenia, completed our specialist education at the Consulting-Art Educational Centre in Belgrade a few years ago. The SPOK (Systemic Psychodynamic Organisational Consulting) training programme belongs to the Psychosocial Section of GAS Belgrade, which consists of senior and experienced group analysts who also serve as supervisors, group leaders, thesis defence board members, and training coordinators. The head of the training programme and our mentor, Dr. Marina Mojović, encouraged us to start writing a paper for the last GASi symposium in August this year. The title of the symposium was actually indicative of the content and feelings that had been resting in us since we finished our studies, but which we had not yet had the opportunity to revive and write down in a structured form. We were given the opportunity to present to an interested professional audience not only our feelings and emotions as we identified them during our education, but also to relate this to the causes of the break-up of the former common state of Yugoslavia. It would be over the edge of healthy narcissism to think that by studying and being closely connected with our colleagues from Serbia, we have contributed a lot to the re-convergence of knowledge and experience between Slovenia and Serbia, as we were already well connected during the education and even afterwards.

Yet, in our modesty, the three Slovenians are also proud that we continue to maintain and strengthen professional exchanges between the two countries in a field that is in itself committed to the development of psycho-social understanding, healthy tolerance and support for organisations and individuals.

Even before we started the abstract, which was a prerequisite for the paper to be accepted for presentation at the symposium, the idea of water, which is a condition of life, which cleanses and nourishes, which connects and shares, had settled in our minds. This was joined by the thought of the river, of the flow of experience that we cannot avoid, because we still live in an organised society, surrounded by family, colleagues, friends, in a neighbourhood with someone. The Sava River, which for millennia, again and again, has carried fresh water from its source among the Slovenian Alps to its confluence with the Danube in Belgrade, has become the last resort. This is also a reflection on the kind of backflow that this creates – the backflow of new knowledge, new material, new search.

We can mention another narcissistic moment – the comparison with our educational path, which, to joke (borders on the grandiose), but which also contains a grain of truth and – hope. There is the ancient Greek myth of the Argonauts, who, in the days before the Trojan War, accompanied Jason on the ship Argo to the island of Colchis, where the golden fleece was stored. According to Plinius, the Argonauts also travelled through Slovenia. They sailed into the Danube River to escape their pursuers. Their route took them along the Sava River, in opposite way to the river flow, to Slovenia’s Ljubljanica River. They crossed what is now Ljubljana and then took the ship overland to the Adriatic Sea and sailed to Greece. So the river was also navigable in the opposite direction – towards Slovenia. Perhaps we really are some kind of seekers of the fleece of the golden ram, which is said to have miraculous properties, as the ancient story goes. Our search for new, perhaps even miraculous, knowledge led us from Slovenia to Belgrade, from where we carried these golden fragments along the same route back to Slovenia and in our working environment.

As all three of us work professionally as consultants, lecturers and coaches, it was essential to maintain professional exchanges, which include active participation in symposia, conferences and other international events. More on this in second part of this article, when we share our presentation of the GASi paper as it was presented at the symposium. Perhaps just a thought to end this introduction – participating in an international professional meeting, among more than four hundred participants from all over the world, is a truly special experience. One gets a sense of how big and yet small our world is, how far we are geographically, perhaps by the colour of our skin, and how close we are by our sincere desire to understand this world and to help people.

Mojca Lubanjšek Pehant: Mojca Lubanjšek Pehant: “I experienced the GASi Symposium in Belgrade intensely long before it even started in the Serbian capital. The responsibility of preparing the paper and presenting the paper marked a good part of my summer this year, and as a consequence I thought more about the meaning of the title of the symposium and the contributions of the other participants than I probably would have done if I had just attended the symposium as a regular participant. Otherness. How does it mark us, limit us, enrich us? How widespread and perceived is the respect and acceptance of diversity? What are the aspirations and what is the reality? The intensity of these questions grew as the conference approached, in fact, they were always somewhere in the background. It was this richness of diversity in one place, i.e. at the symposium, and the welcome and openness of the participants from all over the world, that is deeply etched in my memory. But also the respectfulness, the affection and the goodwill. All these feelings left a deeper mark than the individual lectures and discussions, although I was impressed by the contributions that enriched my feelings. I think again and again how sentient beings we are. Deeply and sincerely receptive to investing in relationships, something we don’t always recognise in ourselves and others. I believe that the title and the content of the conference, which I also understand as being about connectedness in diversity, made an important contribution to my experience of what was happening there. Perhaps this is the right answer to the question of how to increase tolerance in coexistence on this beautiful planet of ours. To feel good, to share honesty and to be well-meaning.

It is also interesting to me how much my experience of the symposium was influenced by the heat that descended on Belgrade in those days. The overheated lecture halls, the lack of air – often the very fact of not feeling physically comfortable fogged my mind and tore my attention. I remember that I felt angry quite a few times, and I also found it difficult to push away some inner negativity at times. Again, feelings before rational reflection. I experience all these as important lessons for life. How difficult it is to find and maintain common points, interests, positive attitudes in groups. How little things can spoil the whole form, content, performance and relationships. How great is the responsibility of those who lead, direct, and in any way take care of groups. I am overwhelmed with great feelings when I think how satisfied, improved, richer in new knowledge I left Belgrade. So, despite the influence of the hot weather hovering over the Belgrade rooftops and forcing its way through the lecture hall windows, the organisers managed to keep the structure and fulfil the purpose.

I am most grateful for the new people who have come into my life. So many new ties have been forged, some temporary and perhaps to be intertwined again at another international event, others that will remain and continue to grow – on all kinds of occasions, including planned collaborations and networking.

As someone who is not a group analyst or psychotherapist, I came to the conference with mixed feelings. This is because my work, as someone coming from a systems psychodynamics background, focuses only on the functioning of groups in organisations and companies. Interestingly, the response from group analysts was quite different from what I expected. If I had previously thought that they might want to expose their knowledge and ‘natural’ affiliation to the conference, I was in the end delighted and surprised by the curiosity and respect with which they approached me, the interest and genuine curiosity with which they asked me questions about our profession and the cohesive way in which they did so. It was also because of this that respect for diversity and integration shone in my eyes again.

I consider it an honour to have presented our article in a block together with two outstanding experts, Christine Thornton and Maja Lyon. I was impressed by the richness and quality of their articles and I learnt something again. Communication has been a great love of mine for more than 20 years and both of them have touched it deeply, each in their own way. What power words have! And how important it is with what feelings they are accompanied. I sincerely believe that it is with them that we will be intensely connected in the future, in new collaborations, in new exchanges of views, perhaps in the creation of new joint projects.

I left GASi Belgrade with a stronger belief that together we can all help to grow and expand the possibilities to coexist in quality and to enable each other to be who we are.”

Simona Lobnik Ambrožič: After symposia, conferences and similar professional meetings, feelings and new content and experiences are yet to be consolidated. There is no point in pushing oneself to do this, because everything finds its place when you think about it spontaneously. It was the same this time. New acquaintances, meetings with lecturers and authors of publications, which form the basis for my professional growth and for passing on knowledge to new generations of edicators, mean a lot to me.  After each meeting, I am motivated to develop professionally and therefore I enjoy my work with clients even more. I believe that the profession of psychodynamic consultant and coach in companies is a kind of mission, because the ultimate goal, as in all other psychoanalytic or psychotherapeutic approaches, is to improve relationships, individual life and the effective functioning of groups.

I am impressed time and again by how many new insights I gain at each of the symposia, conferences, professional meetings. There was a lot of expertise, but even more insights. What perhaps distracted me was that there were so many interesting professional topics on the programme, but I had to skip them because it was impossible to be at all of them at the same time. I will be very happy if the content that was presented is published and collected somewhere so that the participants have access to it. At the same time, I found it less fortunate to present the common themes in a large hall in the plenary lectures. Such a large mass of people requires a different type of lecture and presentation. I know that the content was good and useful, but I was not engaged by the presentation and found it difficult to follow along in a focused way.

But I was very touched by the experimental middle group. We talked a lot about the methodological difference, but also the different emotional perception of the small and median groups. Almost all of us were of the opinion that we prefer the small group. Nevertheless, the dynamics flowed very nicely, we managed to bond very well even in the median group. Which was manifested at the last meeting. We had a few members leave the group, which made the quieter members open up. But the topics we were talking about had gotten so private that the whole group felt it had to offer strong support to each of us. Spontaneously, an idea emerged, which we implemented without hesitation – we eliminated the empty chairs of the members we had lost and moved closer together. Despite the fact that there were still 16 of us, out of the need and desire for containment we made the median-sized group into a small group. The feelings of the individual members were almost palpable, we were relaxed, connected, relieved… a remarkable experience that would probably deserve a more detailed analysis of what was happening in the group.

I accepted with particular affection and inner peace the fact that, although I do not come from a psychotherapeutic background, there were no concerns, any (unconscious) classification or hierarchical dynamics between the participants. I firmly believe that the added value of such meetings is precisely the diversity of approaches brought by different disciplines, all of which are committed to a psychological or analytical understanding of individuals and groups. But we need to be open and give ourselves and others the opportunity, time and space to reflect. I was also pleasantly surprised by the inclusiveness of all the members, regardless of age, gender, nationality or English language skills, which for many was a burden or a block.

The following is an abridged version of our paper, the same as the one we presented at the GASi Symposium in Belgrade.

Title: Dialogue among Slovenian and Serbian tripartite matrices

For thousands of years, the Sava river originates from two lively tributaries between the Slovenian Alps and, after almost thousand kilometres, it flows into its bigger sister, the Danube, at its majestic estuary below the Kalemegdan fortress in the capital of Serbia. On its way, it gets filled with water, which calms it down, and if we watch its outflow, it seems as if it is tired from the hard journey through the Slovenian gorges, many hydroelectric dams, meanders and sharp turns. Perhaps, before it is embraced by the Danube, it is content and proud in its peace, because it supplies water to large cities and plains, but at the same time worried because it repeatedly represents a border between nations that still have not found a common, safe space that would be sufficient and good enough for everyone.

In the 19th century, Prešeren also wrote a very significant narrative ballad, ‘Povodni mož’ (The Water Man), which is still extremely popular and almost nationalized to this day. In it, a handsome young man who comes from the country, as he says: “…Where Sava’s swift waters with Danube’s are stirred…”, seduces Urška – a presumptuous, picky Slovenian girl. During a wild dance, they finally disappear among the roaring waves of the cold river. This can be understood as an ancient archetype that the Serbs, with its kindness, resolve, and tendency to suffer trauma, can cause trouble for Slovenian confidence and naivety:

She knew how to promise and how to refuse,

And how to be amiable, how to be proud;

The young she enticed, to the old smiles allowed;

With talents and tricks she was fully endowed;

For long she kept men eating out of her hand,

But met one at last whom she could not withstand.

In the period of the breakup of the former common state of Yugoslavia, Serbia and Slovenia had very different fates – from the horrors of the Yugoslav Wars to the relatively peaceful transition that some parts of the then still common state achieved without bloody conflicts. Another major loss was the severance of economic, cultural and scientific ties, which had often been strong and long-lasting in the former common state. During that period, the Sava River was once again crimson-red from a tragic conflict, something it had already experienced in the 20th century during the Second World War. Finally, however, the violence died down, the peace process began and the water slowly began to clear. Cultural and economic partners began to rebuild bridges of cooperation based on mutual understanding of culture, economy, and last but foremost, language. The spoken and written word, significantly contributed to the easier re-establishment of contacts. Slovenians of the middle and older generations can be said to find the language of Croats, Serbs and Bosniaks sufficiently understandable and familiar, having grown up in a cultural and media environment where the transition from their native language to the language of neighbouring peoples was quite normal.

Seven years ago, we, the authors (Mojca Lubanjšek Pehant, Simona Lobnik Ambrožič and Igor Ambrožič), received information regarding the study of Systemic Psychodynamic Organizational Consulting (SPOK) in Belgrade through a series of fortunate events. The SPOK training programme in Belgrade is a part of the Psychosocial Section of GASBelgrade, which consists of senior and experienced group analysts who also serve as supervisors, group leaders, thesis defence board members, and training coordinators. Some of the prominent members of this section are Jelica Satarić, Jasmina Knežević Tasić, Tija Despotović and Ivanka Dunjić. The programme has an international dimension, as it is closely connected to ISPSO (International Society for the Psychoanalytic Study of Organisations), which the trainees can join after completing the programme. The trainees also receive regular supervision and individual or group counselling from experts such as Angela Eden, James Krantz, Martin Ringer and Richard Morgan Jones.

Igor Ambrožič: For many years I was a director of television programmes, a job that involves constant operational management of different people and professional profiles. I have always been interested in psychology, human thinking, emotions and behaviour, and how a leader can effectively motivate people while maintaining a good organisational climate. I have been reluctant to accept instant prescriptions and superficial workshops on the psychology of leadership, because I had first-hand experience of the psychotherapeutic and psychoanalytic understanding of human inadequacy and harmfulness in everyday functioning. Two years of education often proved exhausting and demanding. However, our motivation did not dry up, as our fellow students from Serbia welcomed us with sincere openness, hospitality, goodwill and a desire to exchange knowledge, experiences and feelings. Dr. Mojović skillfully led the blocks with professional authority and human integrity, but in no way in an intrusive or possibly authoritarian way. Education opened up new perspectives in my life and slowly calmed me down personally. I decided to leave my long-standing job in the public sector and I can honestly say that to date I have not regretted my decision for a moment.

Mojca Lubanjšek Pehant: As a communication consultant with more than 15 years of experience in various organisations, I have always been fascinated by the importance and impact of communication on relationships, collaboration and productivity. However, I felt that there was something missing in my understanding and practice of communication – something that was underneath, invisible and intangible, yet so strongly shaped the interactions between individuals and groups.

Through various methods Dr. Marina Mojović and other lecturers taught us how to apply and analyze these methods in different contexts and situations. Another aspect of the SPOK study that impressed me was the warmth and openness of the Serbian lecturers and colleagues, which contrasted with the more reserved Slovenian culture. I will never forget the feeling I had when I first walked through the door on Petra Leković Street in Banovo Brdo. I was greeted with a smile, a hug, and a cup of coffee, which made me feel welcome and appreciated. ‘Feelings before words’ – that was the first lesson. We can draw the best from our common history, which was imbued with the slogan “brotherhood and unity” in the former common state, for the present and the future. I am proud and grateful for this opportunity and I look forward to continuing this journey of learning and growth.

Simona Lobnik Ambrožič: The first challenge was the language. When I started, I had to come to terms with the content, translating with a translator, combining English and Serbian to take the first steps. The second concern was the people I would be studying with. I thought about how it would all work out, how they would embrace me, what they would think of my language skills, how I would be comfortable talking about emotions in front of strangers, and also how I would be comfortable expressing emotions in a foreign language.

Almost all my doubts were resolved at the first meeting. It was much better than I expected. We were welcomed by our colleagues from Belgrade as if we had always known each other, as colleagues, welcoming, open and, above all, accepting. The language flowed to such an extent that I often forgot I was speaking in a foreign language, although it turned out that the most difficult thing for me was to talk honestly about my feelings, without fear of being judged.

Developing cooperation

We were therefore driven to study for personal reasons, each in their own way. However, it was important to be accepted into Dr Mojović’s learning organisation ‘Koinonia-Art’ in Belgrade, which, with the entry of Slovenian students, began to restore the broken matrix of knowledge and experience flowing between Serbia and Slovenia. Forgiveness could be felt personally by everyone, but also influenced collectively or associatively on an unconscious level, because after 25 years we wanted to go beyond the reflections on traumas. We did not want to stir up the river again, which finally flowed again clearer from its Slovenian sources to the mighty estuary beneath the fortress of Kalemegdan.

As a result, we founded the Maribor Institute for Psychodynamics of Organisations at the end of last year, as we had already started sharing knowledge with leaders and managers who wanted to improve their psychological understanding in the field of people management. Right from the start, we had the idea of inviting foreign lecturers whom we met in Belgrade to the modules for individual online lectures. Our educators were captivated by the lectures of Martin Ringer, Dr. Jasmina Knežević Tasić and Dr. Marina Mojović. Her visit in March this year was an important step in the further development and cooperation between Serbia and Slovenia, as it was evident that she wanted to see for herself how we pass on the knowledge and experience we received in Belgrade. Her sincere satisfaction had a logical consequence – in June of this year, a group of current and future educators from our programme in Slovenia participated in a three-day conference entitled ‘Applied Group Relations in & between Communities’ at the Belgrade education center. Each participant from Slovenia came to Belgrade with a baggage of their own expectations, emotions, experiences and prior knowledge. After a few days, they all left with similar feelings of acceptance, warmth, intense learning and emotional experience of psychological dynamics in organised teams. However, the authors do not want this article to come across as an idealisation of the newly defined relations and exchanges between Serbia and Slovenia. This would not correspond to reality, in fact it was not even true – not everything was always ideal and the process did not always run smoothly. To idealise it would also mean to miss a unique opportunity to examine more closely the dynamics of the relationship from its inception to the present moment, and to try to give a meaningful framework to the experience.

In this article, we will try to combine and analyse both aspects, the tripartite matrix as explained by Foulkes, Hopper and others and the manifestations of the basic assumptions as defined by Bion. We from Slovenia were prepared to face the different experiences after the break-up of the common state, which was much more tragic for the Serbian people. All the collective unconscious content, in Slovenians and Serbs, manifested itself from time to time in emotional reactions of individuals – including accusations of who was supposed to be the initiator of the destruction and aggression in Yugoslavia, who retreated or even fled from the then common state. But fortunately, there was not much of that. We wanted to enter the learning organisation in a way to clear away the ‘baggage’ that would burden us on the path of development. At the same time, we realised that it is part of us and there is no point in hiding it, because the collective unconscious is always with us and is part of our identity.

Within the study group, there was a perceived dependence on the study leader from the beginning, which is consistent with Bion’s assumption of ‘dependency’ in the phase when the group is new and searching for an identity. Dr. Mojović worked hard to integrate all members, which influenced the feelings of dependency in the sense that we left ourselves to the leader because ‘she knows best how to do it right’. During the process of education and the maturing of the study group, the feelings of dependence on the leader also became less intense. Perhaps at times they were replaced by a ‘fight or flight’ assumption, which manifested itself in the way that individual learners did not want to prepare paper presentations for each block. In this way, partly immaturely, we manifested our independence in that period, or even covertly resisted the leader.

During the studies, we often felt exhausted, but we persevered and wanted to make a difference in our lives. Finally, let us consider the fate that the poet Prešeren assigned to the arrogant and impressionable Slovene Urška:

“I must have a rest now, I’m quite out of breath!

Let’s stop for a little, kind dancer, my dear!”

“The white land of Turkey is not at all near,

Where Danube is met by the Sava so clear,

The deafening waters are waiting to greet

You, Urška! So quickly keep moving your feet!”

He spoke, and they danced on more rapidly yet,

Away from the dance floor and further they whirled,

Beside the Ljubljanica thrice round they swirled,

Still dancing, they ‘neath the loud waters were hurled.

A whirlpool was seen from their boats by some men,

But nobody ever saw Urška again.

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Photo 1.: from left: Igor Ambrožič, Simona Lobnik Ambrožič, dr. Jasmina Knežević Tasić, Maja  Lyon, Christine Thornton, Mojca Lubanjšek Pehant

Photo 2.: Paper presentation to a group of distinguished colleagues